Mountaineer
Banned
I think we as hunters must be mobile. I have areas in Muskingum county, Vinton, Lawrence, Athens, New Straistvile(whatever the hell county thats in) that I hunt. Some years one area is great where the other is poor. The poor area then becomes great. I think in terms of large areas instead of one property. I remeber a thread a couple months ago discussing where everyone is going to hunt? My answer was ...I have no idea. and thats the honst to gods truth. Each year, I have no idea where im going to hunt. Its just the way deer hunting is for me. It changes all the time.
Im a Wolf hunting after a "Nomadic wanderer"
Im a Wolf hunting after a "Nomadic wanderer"
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Milo
Tatonka guide.
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then what in the world are we paying a biologist to do? So your okay being lied to? I'm a little surprised at that. In your own world(just like mine) you get to hunt probably WAY more than the normal 1.9 deer per year hunter. I know I sure do. I could go on but i think your here to argue and that serves no purpose for the real issue. You can only blame the ones being lied to so much...the rest of that burden falls upon those that have deceived us. for the past 3 years 1 deer has been taken off one of my properties but i my sightings have gone so low i am now concerned. I do not see how these actions have decimated my population.
Mountaineer
Banned
I dont care how many deer the state says there is..I dont care how good or bad the state says the deer hunting is... Im completely oblivious to what they preach.
All i care about is the area im hunting..and its me that determines wheather or not the hunting is good or bad. I dont base my hunting spots on govt agencies. I determine where i go not big brother.
All i care about is the area im hunting..and its me that determines wheather or not the hunting is good or bad. I dont base my hunting spots on govt agencies. I determine where i go not big brother.
Im not here to argue about deer numbers not being low....If you guys say they are in your area....Then they must be, you guys would know better than me. I dont hunt where you guys do....But what I do know is that certain peoples actions do not coencide with their concerns.....Thats where the argument starts...
I dont know if I am being lied to or not.....I have never been much of a numbers guy...To be honest this year is the first year I have ever even looked at the statewide kill vs the previous year.... I know what the deer herd is in my area. It seems to match up to what it is every other year for the most part.. In which case I dont think twice about it.
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epe - every time I see your avatar it reminds me of the photo I took with my phone when I first walked up on the buck I killed last fall.
huntn2
Senior Member
Zach,
You just stated exactly what this thread is for...
I don't have the years experience as any of you. I certainly don't have the harvest notches under my belt that any of you have. But I do have anywhere from 120 - 200 hours in a stand in each of the past 4 seasons and I am very analytical.
My opportunities have been limited to the smaller public tracks in NE OH and finally what should be great Private parcel (1 property a bit over 100 acres). My experiences and observations are vastly different from yours and others. Therefore, I turn to numbers and analyze trends and such.
This thread, and several others, have been to share those numbers and to discuss what people are seeing. Some folks who have gone from great herd numbers to nothing are trying to articulate that it happened to them (brock, joe's lease, and a few of jesse's properties are great examples) and it can happen to you if things stay the same. Rex has taken up a survey with obbc members and if I recall over 90% are telling him they are observing fewer deer. Therefore, this isn't just a few grumpy hunters. It seems, more hunters haven't been as fortunate as you when you say you haven't noticed a change in the herd size where you hunt. So to that end, we are trying to see how many folks are seeing significant changes vs. those not. Basically, highlighting what may be a great management plan in one area isn't so great in a neighboring town/county.
Those "things" I mentioned above are hunter attitude/approach, season dates, bag limits, predation, DVA, etc. If these elements stay the same, you too in a year or two, may be on the other side of the fence. Heck you were 3 deer shy in one of your last sits from equaling the total number I saw all year. If you were to continue to put forth the effort you do but all of a sudden stare at only leaves, squirels, chipmunks and birds, you might begin to question what is going on...
I personal have analyzed the hell out of myself, tactics, etc. first, which I have discussed on the phone with you. But then I look at the bigger picture to see if it is something beyond my own inabilities. Hence these threads...
By the way, great deer Mike.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
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I'm sorry, did I miss something. How many does did I shoot this year? How many does did I shoot last year?
And actually that's not what the discussion is about anyway... As much as I think you would like to make it a personal issue its not. We're discussing a problem that is becoming more evident statewide. Statewide. A problem mrex has said he's seen in his telephone survey. A problem that we have shown to be real by providing numbers. Now you may not be seeing an issue where you hunt. That's great. Enjoy it while it lasts and don't for a minute think it can't happen to you. Washington county was once named at the top of the dnr press release as one of the counties leading the way in deer harvests. Since then it has seen a drop in harvests every consecutive year to the tune of a +30% decline.. Amazing how one county can go from top of the list in Ohio, to top of the list in reductions in only a few years. Some areas are going to take longer to show signs of a reduction, some areas never will due to their lack of hunters or access.. however the vast majority of Ohio is showing a startling trend. And attempting to use a personal attack of "practice what you preach" argument tactic against one hunter doesn't even begin to refute the fact that statewide reductions are happening. In the scope of things it doesn't matter if Jesse shoots the last living doe in Washington county. How they got to that point can be laid squarely on one mans shoulders unless your talking about the one man who has led the STATE in a campaign through regulation to reduce herd size. At the end of the day it isn't about you. It isn't about Jesse, me, mrex, or any other individual. It's about failed leadership and the effect its had on our sport.
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epe - every time I see your avatar it reminds me of the photo I took with my phone when I first walked up on the buck I killed last fall.
Hopefully you didn't have to get it in the truck real quick because the second thunderstorm was coming.
If we waited five more minutes, we would have never gotten back up out of the field.
Mountaineer
Banned
We all have different perspectives about the deer hunting in Ohio. Im a Nonresident and for me the hunting in Ohio is excellent and im hunting overun, overhunted land that's exposed to NO restrictions what so ever in regards to deer management and still..it provides what i call great hunting.
When you hunt states like PA, MD, VA, WV and Maine, one gains an undertsanding just how great the hunting is in Ohio. Do i see alot of deer in Ohio when im hunting?. No. I started hunting in Ohio in 07' and ive never considered Ohio as having alot of deer. I dont care if there's alot of deer or not thats not an issue for me..because i know the deer that i am hunting are the very ones less likely to be killed. Ohio provides Oppurtunities for mature deer on publiclands and that's a rare thing. Ohio provides the less fortunate.. the underprivliedged great hunting.
What defines "Great Hunting" is determined by each individual hunter. If "Lots of Deer" is what determines great hunting then i invite you to hunt WV, PA, MD. Ive been hunting 35 years and there's one thing that ive noticed and that is..In areas of Lower deer numbers, the quality of animals are better.
However,, I firmly believe if Ohio allowed rifles and a 2 or 3 week gun season like the other states it wouldnt have the mature bucks it has. No rifles..short gun seasons allows the bucks that chance to become older. The more effiecient the ODNR makes it for hunters to harvest animals the lower numbers of mature bucks will be available. That i do know.
When you hunt states like PA, MD, VA, WV and Maine, one gains an undertsanding just how great the hunting is in Ohio. Do i see alot of deer in Ohio when im hunting?. No. I started hunting in Ohio in 07' and ive never considered Ohio as having alot of deer. I dont care if there's alot of deer or not thats not an issue for me..because i know the deer that i am hunting are the very ones less likely to be killed. Ohio provides Oppurtunities for mature deer on publiclands and that's a rare thing. Ohio provides the less fortunate.. the underprivliedged great hunting.
What defines "Great Hunting" is determined by each individual hunter. If "Lots of Deer" is what determines great hunting then i invite you to hunt WV, PA, MD. Ive been hunting 35 years and there's one thing that ive noticed and that is..In areas of Lower deer numbers, the quality of animals are better.
However,, I firmly believe if Ohio allowed rifles and a 2 or 3 week gun season like the other states it wouldnt have the mature bucks it has. No rifles..short gun seasons allows the bucks that chance to become older. The more effiecient the ODNR makes it for hunters to harvest animals the lower numbers of mature bucks will be available. That i do know.
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I've apologized to Mike about this, but also wanted to clear the air here. I was under the impression there were a certain set of circumstances leading up to a bad situation that Mike was responsible for. However I learned last night that this was not the case. I felt the information I received at the time was in good faith and acceptable credibility. I believe it was now a classic example of how second/third hand information can become distorted pretty easily. So I'm moving past that issue and no longer find Mike at fault for the outcome of that situation...
I'd also like to reiterate that those of you in the "do as I say" crowd need to realize not everything is as you perceive it. Before you jump to conclusions, try inquiring a little deeper in to the matter at hand and maybe you'll see what you thought to be the case, is not so. I'm not in this for my own selfish reasons, although they are a part of it. Not all of my hunting areas are depleted of deer; but the ones I care most about are facing tough times. In addition to that, I am constantly receiving feedback from around the county how bad things have gotten in certain area. It has been said before, but I'll say it again: Deer exist in pockets and Washington County is no different. If I only ever hunted on the acreage right next to my house, I would have no reason to be involved in this. (This is where I killed my doe this year.) If I only ever hunted on the acreage behind my parent’s house, I would have some concern, but not nearly the level that I have now. Early in the season, it was tough going out there and we laid off the does as a result. However after the corn came off around Christmas and a halt was put to the constant four-wheeler riding on the neighbors, things improved. The doe I wounded was part of a group of nearly 10 does living in the area around my parents place. Neither of these properties is of major concern to me at this point.
I have two more properties that I hunt where I can show through my journals and trail cams that the deer herd has dropped significantly in the past few years. We are laying off the does on both of these farms with the exception of allowing Jamie to kill his first deer with a bow on opening day and allowing Ryan Nayden to shoot one. No matter where deer numbers stand, I will never rob someone of experiencing their first archery harvest. I have a buddy at work that bought NR license and tags to hunt our farm this year and ended up not doing so because I would not allow him to shoot a doe. I reimbursed him for his tag (he used his license doing other things) as a result. Mike Cottis can attest that I asked him not to shoot does while he was down. No one other than Jamie has killed a doe on either of these two farms in two seasons now. As for me, the last time I killed a doe from either place was on opening day in 2008 (before I started to notice a drop in numbers).
That being said, some of you can continue to point fingers at me saying that I shouldn’t be talking about declining doe numbers when I am killing/shooting at does. To that, I say your perception of reality is off base. The sky is not falling in all the areas I hunt, but it’s nearly on my head in others. And when you run the numbers on our county as a whole, it is painfully obvious that our deer herd has been pole axed with reckless abandon in past years and the DNR facilitated that. They are not alone as coyotes, poaching, and party hunting have their hands in the cookie jar as well. I just ask that the next time you think you have me figured out, make sure you have your facts straight before you try dragging me down…
Jesse,
I just ran some numbers and I see that Washington County is 635 Sq. miles not counting water. There were 4223 deer killed in that county this year. Just by doing the math that equates to 6.65 deer killed per square mile on average throughout your entire county!
With that being said, what number of deer available to be killed per square mile do you feel is acceptable and where do you wish that level was at compared to now?
I just ran some numbers and I see that Washington County is 635 Sq. miles not counting water. There were 4223 deer killed in that county this year. Just by doing the math that equates to 6.65 deer killed per square mile on average throughout your entire county!
With that being said, what number of deer available to be killed per square mile do you feel is acceptable and where do you wish that level was at compared to now?
Milo
Tatonka guide.
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thats kind of a false number because you missing ALOT of huntable property like towns and villages let a lone houses and roads...you probably looking at 12 deer per square mile killed. did you factor in road crashes in kill totals?
My thoughts on this are in line with Milo. That is how the math breaks down, but what is the real number? Remove the unhuntable ground from the equation and show me the number of deer killed per huntable acre, then I might be willing to think of things in these terms. Until today, I have not considered the number that is “deer killed per square mile”. I, nor anyone else IMO, have a way of truly knowing what that number is today and what number would be acceptable to all parties. So I will not make an attempt to even answer that question with a specific number.
I do not have all the answers here. What I have to offer anecdotal evidence generated through several years of trail camera and personal observation on three unique properties, with some new hunting grounds mixed in over time. I’ve been hunting at my parents since 2000 and the farm since 2005. The best year I had for sightings was 2003 at the rents and 2007 at the farm. Best rut was 2001 at the house and never at the farm. All in all, 2003-2007 was much better than 2008-2011 across the board. I’d like to see three things happen within the next 2-5 years that IMO could mimic the state of things in the 2003-2007 years. For starters, I’d love to see the deer herds managed more at the county level than the “tri-state” level it’s being managed at now. This would require a localized force of officials that are truly proactive on the behalf of their constituents. Second, I’d like to end the deer season one week after muzzleloader. Lastly, I’d like to see the bonus gun season eliminated. I support the current motion to stop the extra tags before gun season, so I hope that makes it through.
That’s where I stand at this point in time. It’s purely based on my thoughts and opinions…
No, I am trying to keep this as simple as possible. Just going by hunter kills, nothing else. To me, almost 7 deer per square mile getting shot seems like a lot of deer to this flatlander, when comparing my county that only kills just over 2 deer per square mile.
If you take away unhuntable ground, then your number goes up, up and up......
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I agree with milo. But let's use your number for now..
Your question of ""what number of deer available to be killed per square mile do you feel is acceptable and where do you wish that level was at compared to now""
To answer the first part, it would depend on the carrying capacity of the land. none of us here can give you a good answer on that.. See, that's why we employ state biologists. And by the looks of their zone map where everything in C is treated the same, I don't think they give a damn.
And the 2nd part. What is the acceptable kill. There again we would need to know the carrying capacity and population of the land... You say it's 6.65.. That means nothing to me... Is that 6.65 out of 25?? Or 6.65 out of 10.. "acceptable" depends on what is there. Here again were back at the our wonderful state employed biologist. Who once again manages over half of Ohio in one zone all the same.. Who once again doesn't appear to care.
At the end of the day it's not our job to sit here and play biologist, or pretend to know how to manage a herd. But we can tell you one thing.. And this comes from boots on the ground, ass in a stand, camera on a free experience. The deer are NOWHERE near as plentiful as they were just a few years ago. Hunting has started to suck in vast areas and we're paying for it. As far as we're concerned that's all that matters, how that's going to be fixed and righted is once again up to our wonderful state biologist who manage deer like a lifeguard manages an olympic sized pool. All inclusive. One would think they would listen to the guys in the field burning boot leather, sitting in stands, and running cameras.. After all I bet Jesse did more hands on in the field experience in Washington county than every biologist the dnr employs. one would think that would qualify him to make such a simple observation of there aren't as many deer in the areas he hunts. If Tonk spent the same amount of time in the woods of Washington county and made that observation it would be gold. Well you don't have to be a biologist to see there are less deer just an observant hunter.. Yet somehow their opinion isn't valued by the guys behind a desk.
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Whatever it is would mean the end result will be much higher than 7 deer per square mile killed......if that isn't enough then I can't imagine what would be.