Numbers.. Ohio's 2011-12 White-tailed Deer Season -8%

[xbowguy]

Or at least get our fee's up in the 3-400 dollar range like we would pay in a lot of states. Then add the lease permits of a couple hundred per hunter for out of state hunters......Larger fee's per tag, different tags per weapon ect ect........ Let's help to take care of our own here like other states are doing. Bet that would slow down the traffic some.

 

[Lundy]

I just read this entire thread and it certainly is interesting following all of the twists and turns.

The only certainty to me is that the single largest impact in deer harvest, and possible herd reduction through harvest, for the last 5 years, is not gun season, youth season, 4 days of MZ season or even the dreaded 2 day bonus gun season. If the reduction many of you are seeing is from harvest increase or indirect deer kill by hunters, then there is little doubt in my mind it is the archery season, the numbers are pretty obvious.

If reductions are from predation or lack of recruitment or a combination of these and harvest, you still come back to archery as the only significant statistical increase in recent years.

I posted this on a thread here is Dec and caught hell for it. Now I read in this thread about a need to train bowhunters in an attempt to reduce the indirect kill from archery season. How many deer are actually killed during archery season with a 85,000-90,000 reported kill? 125,000, 150,000, 200,000, more?

Total gun harvests, Gun, youth MZ have remained fairly consistent since 2005-2010. What have gone up and put the biggest hurt on the deer herd are the archery kills.
2005 - 60,090
2006- 67,912
2007 - 78,639
2008 - 85,856
2009 - 91,546
2010- 85,012

Factor in the half of the guys bowhunting shouldn't be shooting a live animal with a bow and the herd reductions largest impact is without a doubt the bowhunters, not the 2 day bonus gun, youth or MZ seasons, again they have remained fairly flat during this time period. If bowhunters report between 85,000 and 90,000 deer harvested what do you think the actual deer kill is just based upon the stories on this site and others about non recovered deer?
.

 

[mrex]

I just read this entire thread and it certainly is interesting following all of the twists and turns.

The only certainty to me is that the single largest impact in deer harvest, and possible herd reduction through harvest, for the last 5 years, is not gun season, youth season, 4 days of MZ season or even the dreaded 2 day bonus gun season. If the reduction many of you are seeing is from harvest increase or indirect deer kill by hunters, then there is little doubt in my mind it is the archery season, the numbers are pretty obvious.

If reductions are from predation or lack of recruitment or a combination of these and harvest, you still come back to archery as the only significant statistical increase in recent years.

I posted this on a thread here is Dec and caught hell for it. Now I read in this thread about a need to train bowhunters in an attempt to reduce the indirect kill from archery season. How many deer are actually killed during archery season with a 85,000-90,000 reported kill? 125,000, 150,000, 200,000, more?

Total gun harvests, Gun, youth MZ have remained fairly consistent since 2005-2010. What have gone up and put the biggest hurt on the deer herd are the archery kills.
2005 - 60,090
2006- 67,912
2007 - 78,639
2008 - 85,856
2009 - 91,546
2010- 85,012

Factor in the half of the guys bowhunting shouldn't be shooting a live animal with a bow and the herd reductions largest impact is without a doubt the bowhunters, not the 2 day bonus gun, youth or MZ seasons, again they have remained fairly flat during this time period. If bowhunters report between 85,000 and 90,000 deer harvested what do you think the actual deer kill is just based upon the stories on this site and others about non recovered deer?
.

That's an excellent point Kim.

 

[hickslawns]

That's an excellent point Kim.

Tough pill to swallow, but that is logical. That makes sense. Might not be the only culprit, but might be a bigger variable than we have been giving it credit.

 

[Big H]

You mean guys that do stuff like this? Found a dead 9 point in 2010, plus 3 does this year that were not recovered from the same moron hunting down the road from me. Those are the one's that I know about for sure. Last year he supposedly shot and did not recover 3 different bucks. This is a close knit area, so this is not just heresay, since I personally know every other person hunting this area except this yahoo. We share information, sightings and help each other recover deer.

 

[jagermeister]

I just read this entire thread and it certainly is interesting following all of the twists and turns.

The only certainty to me is that the single largest impact in deer harvest, and possible herd reduction through harvest, for the last 5 years, is not gun season, youth season, 4 days of MZ season or even the dreaded 2 day bonus gun season. If the reduction many of you are seeing is from harvest increase or indirect deer kill by hunters, then there is little doubt in my mind it is the archery season, the numbers are pretty obvious.

If reductions are from predation or lack of recruitment or a combination of these and harvest, you still come back to archery as the only significant statistical increase in recent years.

I posted this on a thread here is Dec and caught hell for it. Now I read in this thread about a need to train bowhunters in an attempt to reduce the indirect kill from archery season. How many deer are actually killed during archery season with a 85,000-90,000 reported kill? 125,000, 150,000, 200,000, more?

Total gun harvests, Gun, youth MZ have remained fairly consistent since 2005-2010. What have gone up and put the biggest hurt on the deer herd are the archery kills.
2005 - 60,090
2006- 67,912
2007 - 78,639
2008 - 85,856
2009 - 91,546
2010- 85,012

Factor in the half of the guys bowhunting shouldn't be shooting a live animal with a bow and the herd reductions largest impact is without a doubt the bowhunters, not the 2 day bonus gun, youth or MZ seasons, again they have remained fairly flat during this time period. If bowhunters report between 85,000 and 90,000 deer harvested what do you think the actual deer kill is just based upon the stories on this site and others about non recovered deer?
.

While that all makes a lot of sense, and I can totally see your point... If you take away days to bowhunt, guys will just gun hunt more often and those kills will still be there. Bowhunting has become incredibly popular over the past decade in Ohio. As a result of that, there are a lot of guys that quit taking vacation for gun season and take it during the rut instead... and even guys that just completely stop gun hunting alltogether. Take away opportunity to bowhunt, and they'll just blow the dust off their 870's.

 

[Jackalope]

I agree with you Kim. We do know there are a bunch more archery hunters since 1995. Actually it's over a 100% increase. And I agree that I think the killed and I recovered rate is far higher than most here would think.

I have all the sheets that break down harvest by county and method going back to 2004. I'll compare the numbers and come up with a sheet. That's going to take some time though. That's a bunch of data. What I'll pay attention to is gun vs archery kills under the same time period. And the increases from both.

 

[Lundy]

While that all makes a lot of sense, and I can totally see your point... If you take away days to bowhunt, guys will just gun hunt more often and those kills will still be there. Bowhunting has become incredibly popular over the past decade in Ohio. As a result of that, there are a lot of guys that quit taking vacation for gun season and take it during the rut instead... and even guys that just completely stop gun hunting altogether. Take away opportunity to bowhunt, and they'll just blow the dust off their 870's.

I do not have an answer to the problems, hell I don't even know for sure what the problem is. I am only trying to illustrate that if there is a reduction in the deer herd that can be attributed to hunters, then there is only one segment, bowhunters, that have shown an increase in reported harvest and substantial increase in participation numbers. Additionally when you factor in the ratio of reported harvest to the not recovered bow kills it seems pretty obvious where deer mortality increases have occurred.

I still contend that the shot and lost deer occurrence is much higher with archery than with guns. I think this for few reasons. An less than skilled hunter is much more proficient at killing a deer with a gun than with a bow. You have the opportunity for a follow up shot or shots with a gun. You have two primary kill methods, hemorrhage and shock with a gun. The woods are full of gun hunters for a few short days per year, the chances of a wounded deer being shot by another hunter is much higher. Very limited number of days, 13 versus, months with a bow. Most bowhunters couldn't hit the ground from 20 yds much less a deer. Those that do hit a deer, most have no idea how to properly track a deer. I think it was mentioned that there are now 345,000 bowhunters in Ohio. How many of those belong to an archery club? How many shoot 3D courses?, How many of those practice shooting more than just a couple of days prior to opening day? How many of those have setups that are really tuned and properly setup? How many would even know how to tune a broadhead? How many have ever practiced from an elevated position?

Most of you on this site and the others I visit are the cream of the crop, you practice, you have the best equipment, it is all tuned to perfection and yet we all read the countless threads each and every year of many, many lost deer. If the cream of the crop is experiencing this high frequency of failure where do you think the Walmart bowhunter weighs in?

Then please contrast the very small number of threads that discuss a deer lost during the gun seasons.

We all grew up as avid hunters and bowhunters hearing the horror stories about the orange army and the slaughter of deer during the gun seasons with countless wounded and deed deer not recovered littering our woods. I was once a believer, not anymore. The Internet and the increased popularity of hunting and fishing websites has convinced me that there is no segment of our hunting community that creates more unnecessary waste of our resource than bowhunting as a whole, as structured today. I only reach this conclusion from the words of the very ones that are involved.

Some will probably take offense with what I believe, painting all with a broad brush. If you are as good of a bowhunter as you think you are, you already probably agree with most of what I said and won't be offended, others...................

 

[Lundy]

I agree with you Kim. We do know there are a bunch more archery hunters since 1995. Actually it's over a 100% increase. And I agree that I think the killed and I recovered rate is far higher than most here would think.

I have all the sheets that break down harvest by county and method going back to 2004. I'll compare the numbers and come up with a sheet. That's going to take some time though. That's a bunch of data. What I'll pay attention to is gun vs archery kills under the same time period. And the increases from both.

I look forward to to seeing what the data states

One stat that has I have always found intersting is the harvest ratio of bucks to does for crossbow hunters versus vertical bowhunters. Are cross bowhunters better hunters:smiley_crocodile: Or are they just willing to shoot smaller bucks?

 

[finelyshedded]

I also think Lundy has a valid point. Bowhunting seems to have really taken off over the past 15 years.

 

[finelyshedded]

Great two posts Lundy! Thanks for chiming in!

 

[Mountaineer]

Here's a problem i see.... Hunters are becoming more efficient. Where hunters use to use the old 1100 smooth bore with no scope are now switching to better technological equipment. Scoped MZ's are becoming more popular and they are very accurate. Accuracy means more killing. If a deer is within 150 yards with a MZer, it hits the dirt. Compare that to a Smooth bore rem 100 with a bead..well..there's no chance in hell. Heck ..a 50 yard shot with a 1100 is even tough. Ohio hunters are becoming more efficient removing deer from the herd.

The ODNR better take this into account in their equation or things could get really bad. Maybe some of you guys are seeing the effects already.

 

[Lundy]

Here's a problem i see.... Hunters are becoming more efficient. Where hunters use to use the old 1100 smooth bore with no scope are now switching to better technological equipment. Scoped MZ's are becoming more popular and they are very accurate. Accuracy means more killing. If a deer is within 150 yards with a MZer, it hits the dirt. Compare that to a Smooth bore rem 100 with a bead..well..there's no chance in hell. Heck ..a 50 yard shot with a 1100 is even tough. Ohio hunters are becoming more efficient removing deer from the herd.

The ODNR better take this into account in their equation or things could get really bad. Maybe some of you guys are seeing the effects already.

No denying that there have been some good advancements in hunting equipment, guns, optics, slugs, and bowhunting equipment.

However with these advancements how would one explain the basically flat gun harvest since 2006? You assert that the advancements in guns are leading to a higher harvest but the numbers do not reflect a higher gun harvest. Gun harvest has been flat or reducing, not increasing.

Total gun harvests
2005- 148,477
2006- 168,428 - (first year for 2 day bonus)
2007 - 153,299
2008 - 164,896
2009 - 168,405
2010 - 153,671
2011 - -136,000 (+ or - a few thousand)(based on published number to date and a total kill all methods of 219,698)


Archery -

2005 - 60,090
2006- 67,912
2007 - 78,639
2008 - 85,856
2009 - 91,546
2010- 85,012
2011 - 84,000 (+ or - a few thousand)(no published number to date, close number based on total kill all methods of 219,698)

REVISED NUMBERS!!! I did not include the youth gun kill

 

[huntn2]

No denying that there have been some good advancements in hunting equipment, guns, optics, slugs, and bowhunting equipment.

However with these advancements how would one explain the basically flat gun harvest since 2006? You assert that the advancements in guns are leading to a higher harvest but the numbers do not reflect a higher gun harvest. Gun harvest has been flat or reducing, not increasing.

Total gun harvests
2005- 148,477
2006- 168,428 - (first year for 2 day bonus)
2007 - 153,299
2008 - 164,896
2009 - 168,405
2010 - 153,671
2011 - -127,000 (+ or - a few thousand)(based on published number to date and a total kill all methods of 219,698)


Archery -

2005 - 60,090
2006- 67,912
2007 - 78,639
2008 - 85,856
2009 - 91,546
2010- 85,012
2011 - 92,000 (+ or - a few thousand)(no published number to date, close number based on total kill all methods of 219,698)


Pretty difficult to support your position about gun advancements being the problem with the apparent deminishing deer herd.

Great information Lundy.

To me this just further eludeds to a shrinking deer herd across the state...

Per the state...the estimated number of bow hunters in 2005 was 250,000. In 2011 that number is 345,000. Per the state the estimated number of gun hunters in 2005 was 400,000. In 2011 that number is 420,000.

So we have approximately 95,000 more bow hunters and 20,000 more gun hunters now compared to 2005. Archery kills have grown proportionately with the increase in bow hunters. Gun kills have remained relatively flat and have now fallen off even though hunters have increased. This has all occured while technology has improved. We have also seen the days afield grow for both gun and bow over this time.

So we have increased days afield. We have increased permits available. We have increased the number of hunters. Technology has improved. With all of these increases the number of deer killed annually has decreased....

I know first hand there are pockets of deer that have out of control populations but I have yet to see data that doesn't lead me to believe the herd statewide in huntable areas is declining. As I said earlier. I don't care if they cut back on tags, days afield, increase fees or all of that. What I really want to see is a management plan by county.

 

[Lundy]

I hope we get access to at least some of the data from the hunter surveys. Not real sure it will be representative but it all they have to work with.

I would like to know the total number of days hunted buy the 345,000 bowhunters versus the total for 420,000 gun hunters.

With one segment growing in harvest and the other declining I think the answer is obvious which is greater. It is really just a question of of how much greater. I would guess a minimum of 4 to 1, maybe even much higher than that.

I did see less deer this year for sure, but I don't know if the population is down or if they moved across the road to a more favored food source, just don't know.

 

[brock ratcliff]

Lundy, the increase in archery harvest is at least in part due to the antlerless "archery" tags issued over those years. When did those start 06? I would venture to guess many that would not have shot a doe (particularly in zone A) would now shoot one with their bow. That was the goal of the DOW with the archery antlerless tags - to increase the doe harvest and reduce the overall population. Archery hunters have been encouraged to shoot more does by the DOW....it was their plan.

 

[Lundy]

Brock,

I think you are right, except I don't know if they increased doe harvest as much as many may think after looking at the button buck data for 2010. That data both surprised and depressed me, although it may have saved 9,758 does for breeding.

2005 - 60,090 - 49.8% anterless
2006- 67,912 - 51.4% anterless
2007 - 78,639 - 57.8% anterless
2008 - 85,856 - 59% anterless
2009 - 91,546 - 58% anterless
2010- 85,012 - 46% does (this was the first year of separating button bucks from the antlerless numbers in the totals, 35,939 bucks, 39,315 does, 9,758 buttons)


No data available on the ODNR website to separate how many of the antlerless in years 2005-2009 were buttons

 

[jagermeister]

No denying that there have been some good advancements in hunting equipment, guns, optics, slugs, and bowhunting equipment.

However with these advancements how would one explain the basically flat gun harvest since 2006? You assert that the advancements in guns are leading to a higher harvest but the numbers do not reflect a higher gun harvest. Gun harvest has been flat or reducing, not increasing.

Total gun harvests
2005- 148,477
2006- 168,428 - (first year for 2 day bonus)
2007 - 153,299
2008 - 164,896
2009 - 168,405
2010 - 153,671
2011 - -136,000 (+ or - a few thousand)(based on published number to date and a total kill all methods of 219,698)


Archery -

2005 - 60,090
2006- 67,912
2007 - 78,639
2008 - 85,856
2009 - 91,546
2010- 85,012
2011 - 84,000 (+ or - a few thousand)(no published number to date, close number based on total kill all methods of 219,698)

REVISED NUMBERS!!! I did not include the youth gun kill

It's simple really... more guys are bowhunting now that never did before... Therefore, you have guys spending less time in the woods during gun season than they used to. Instead of a week of hunting with a gun, maybe now they only hunt opening day. Instead of killing 2 does with a gun, they only kill one because they already killed one or two with their bow.

 

[Milo]

It's simple really... more guys are bowhunting now that never did before... Therefore, you have guys spending less time in the woods during gun season than they used to. Instead of a week of hunting with a gun, maybe now they only hunt opening day. Instead of killing 2 does with a gun, they only kill one because they already killed one or two with their bow.

i also think some are seeking refuge in the bow...the gun season weather has been mighty shakey the past few years

 

[Jackalope]

I hope we get access to at least some of the data from the hunter surveys. Not real sure it will be representative but it all they have to work with.

I would like to know the total number of days hunted buy the 345,000 bowhunters versus the total for 420,000 gun hunters.

With one segment growing in harvest and the other declining I think the answer is obvious which is greater. It is really just a question of of how much greater. I would guess a minimum of 4 to 1, maybe even much higher than that.

I did see less deer this year for sure, but I don't know if the population is down or if they moved across the road to a more favored food source, just don't know.

That's a real easy assumption to make, and I think a bunch of people may assume the same thing. Here is a real easy way to find out. When you see someone you don't know in camo, or they have hunting stickers on their truck etc, stop them and ask a couple questions.

"hey man do you hunt around here" can I ask you a coup questions. Do you bow hunt or gun hunt" Compared to 4 years ago are you seeing more or less deer on your property. If you had to put a percentage on it compared to 4 years ago are you seeing 10,20,30,40,50 percent less or more deer....

I have asked these question hundreds upon hundreds of times to complete strangers in the mall, at the gas station, at work, at gander Mtn, and a multitude of countries in ohio. The overwhelming majority, like 85+% have told me the numbers are down about 40%.