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Numbers.. Ohio's 2011-12 White-tailed Deer Season -8%

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,121
274
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Default.aspx?tabid=5725


here is the list of proposed meeting on the wildlife council. I may start going to these I will get emails of these members and raise some hell

Yay.... That's right on my way home... :)


2011 schedule
All meeting begin at 6:30 p.m. unless otherwise noted.


  • January 4, 2012
    Wildlife District One Office
    1500 Dublin Road, Columbus
  • February 8, 2012
    Wildlife District One Office
    1500 Dublin Road, Columbus
  • March 7, 2012
    Wildlife District One Office
    1500 Dublin Road, Columbus
  • April 4, 2012
    Wildlife District One Office
    1500 Dublin Road, Columbus
  • July 18, 2012
    Wildlife District One Office
    Dublin Road, Columbus
  • August 15, 2012
    Wildlife District One Office
    1500 Dublin Road, Columbus
  • September 19, 2012
    Wildlife District One Office
    1500 Dublin Road, Columbus
  • October 17, 2012
    Wildlife District One Office
    1500 Dublin Road, Columbus
These meetings are open to public attendance, but there is no opportunity for public comment. Questions will be allowed and responded to once the meeting has adjourned.
 

jagermeister

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
18,284
237
Ohio
Thinking about this further I think I can see the DNRs reasoning behind only asking about the primary county hunted. It's convoluted but I see what they're thinking...

If we ask everyone about the primary county hunted, it is true they will not give us opinions about other counties...... However someone will give us an opinion of that county as it's their primary county..

For example.. Joe hunted Champaine and Vinton.. He will give us his opinion on Champaine as it was his primary county... We will get out vinton opinion from another person.. We have 40,000 people so we should get primary opinions for each county...... They assume this will give them the best observation by the people that hunted there the most.

Ok. Fair enough.. I get that.. However... They are forgetting one very massive piece of the puzzle that will slant their data drastically.... Hunters are mobile. They go where it gives them the best opportunity to kill a deer.. If JD didn't let me hunt on one of his places I would still be hunting Vinton last season. As a result i would answered the survey for vinton.. But I was mobile and have to answer it for Champaign. A place I have no prior year history.. I have no basis.. I do know there are far more deer in champagne than Vinton.. So I'm happy.. To hell with vinton... The problem is as numbers decline, hunters move, and so do their primary counties.. It's called adaptation..

It is for this reason a data sample for EVERY county hunted will be more accurate.. It may not be as authoritative since they hunted there less. But that doesn't matter.. hunters still know if a property is crappy or not very quickly.. They would have to make said observation or they wouldn't have hunted elsewhere. I walked on the vinton property for about an hour last season and instantly could tell you i didn't see a single sign of recovery. I know how it once was, I know how it is today.. But since I moved to find better deer my opinion doesn't count.. Instead I have to give an opinion on a county where I have zero history or a short history..

If you ask them information about EVERY county they hunted, it may result in information that's not accurate. For example, Joe Schmoe hunts three different counties... A, B, and C. He hunts his ass off in counties A and B, but he only hunts county C one time. Will the observations made on the one single hunt elude to the overall status of the deer population in that county? Possibly... but I doubt it. I hunted Medina County only two days this season, and saw three deer on one of the hunts... killed none. Do you think the outcome of these two hunts would contribute quality data to the survey? No. The state wants info about the counties you hunted most because you will most likely have a better grasp of the situation in that county.

Who's opinion is more reliable for a given county... the guy that hunts it 30 days a year, or the guy that hunts it 5 times? Ask for information about EVERY county hunted, and your sample size will grow, indeed... But, the reliability of the data will decrease.
 
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Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,121
274
If you ask them information about EVERY county they hunted, it may result in information that's not accurate. For example, Joe Schmoe hunts three different counties... A, B, and C. He hunts his ass off in counties A and B, but he only hunts county C one time. Will the observations made on the one single hunt elude to the overall status of the deer population in that county? Possibly... but I doubt it. I hunted Medina County only two days this season, and saw three deer on one of the hunts... killed none. Do you think the outcome of these two hunts would contribute quality data to the survey? No. The state wants info about the counties you hunted most because you will most likely have a better grasp of the situation in that county.

Who's opinion is more reliable for a given county... the guy that hunts it 30 days a year, or the guy that hunts it 5 times? Ask for information about EVERY county hunted, and your sample size will grow, indeed... But, the reliability of the data will decrease.


Isn't that what I just said was their mentality, and explained how it was wrong... The reliability of the data will not decrease if it is severely jacked up and limited from the start.. (Also explained) What you will accomplish is spreading out opinions that are all inclusive, resulting in a larger data sample, not necessarily a decrease in reliability as it's now all encompassing.. The key to data mining is get ALL the data available and figure out how to filter out the information you need by using variables.... Not eliminate all the variables and ignore influencing circumstances. That's going to give you a slanted opinion.

The gains far outweigh the impact, and if the slight devaluation across a larger sample still bugs you then assign a weight scale proportionate to days afield. They have the data for time spent in each county... Assign a weighted scale to represent the overall opinion. It's not going to hurt you to include the extra data.. If you want a report for primary county only, then query that bitch and get your numbers... If you want to be all encompassing. Look at the number of day afield, assign a mathematical scale to weight the replies. If 400 guys spent between 2 and 22 days in a county that they all identified as their secondary.. Then weight their responses between 1 and 20 based on number of days.. You still have your original numbers from guys who said it was their primary.. But get this shit.. Now you have a dataset to look at variables.. You data just got a crapload more accurate.. That's if you want to go all out.. Personally I don't care how many days they spent in the county this year. More importantly I would like to know how many YEARS they hunted the county.. If a guy has hunted a county for 5 years, but this year only spent 1 day on the property because it sucks.. He should be able to tell you in as little as a day if the population compared to years past is low...... Accurate statistics is not about eliminating variables. It's about embracing them and accounting for them...

Not something I would expect the ODNR to understand.. They can't even grasp the concept that hunter density per county is a huge variable in harvest numbers that is STILL unaccounted for when considering numbers.
 
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huntn2

Senior Member
6,097
171
Hudson, OH
If you ask them information about EVERY county they hunted, it may result in information that's not accurate. For example, Joe Schmoe hunts three different counties... A, B, and C. He hunts his ass off in counties A and B, but he only hunts county C one time. Will the observations made on the one single hunt elude to the overall status of the deer population in that county? Possibly... but I doubt it. I hunted Medina County only two days this season, and saw three deer on one of the hunts... killed none. Do you think the outcome of these two hunts would contribute quality data to the survey? No. The state wants info about the counties you hunted most because you will most likely have a better grasp of the situation in that county.

Who's opinion is more reliable for a given county... the guy that hunts it 30 days a year, or the guy that hunts it 5 times? Ask for information about EVERY county hunted, and your sample size will grow, indeed... But, the reliability of the data will decrease.

What if you only spent 2-3 hunts in a county because you are running several cameras and aren't capturing activity justifying spending time on stand there? What if what you are capturing on camera is a significant decrease compared to past seasons? Should you not be able to share your experience? Is your opinion suddenly less valuable?

I am not perfect. I have opportunities for improvement both personally and professionally. I am willing to admit this.

I see opportunity for the ODNR to improve this survey process and the content of the surveys. Hopefully they are as willing as I to critically evaluate themselves and their current processes...

I don't have the answers, just suggestions. They have shown the ability to adapt to "newer technology" (telecheck) so hopefully they will do so on this front as well.

Clearly some hunters have a perception that their opinion and experiences do not matter. Right or wrong, that is the perception. We can talk about attending meetings to voice concern and we can talk about contacting a WO or even tonk himself, but let me ask this. If hunter input is so valued, why are the regs for next season proposed prior to the open houses and prior to the summarization of the "random" sampling.

Its a tough pill to swallow when you are told you can not complete a survey in one breath and in the next someone is spewing they haven't heard boo from hunters....

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
 

hickslawns

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
40,354
288
Ohio
If you ask them information about EVERY county they hunted, it may result in information that's not accurate. For example, Joe Schmoe hunts three different counties... A, B, and C. He hunts his ass off in counties A and B, but he only hunts county C one time. Will the observations made on the one single hunt elude to the overall status of the deer population in that county? Possibly... but I doubt it. I hunted Medina County only two days this season, and saw three deer on one of the hunts... killed none. Do you think the outcome of these two hunts would contribute quality data to the survey? No. The state wants info about the counties you hunted most because you will most likely have a better grasp of the situation in that county.

Who's opinion is more reliable for a given county... the guy that hunts it 30 days a year, or the guy that hunts it 5 times? Ask for information about EVERY county hunted, and your sample size will grow, indeed... But, the reliability of the data will decrease.

Shouldn't matter Jim. You are forgetting this is a "random" survey. How many guys you bump into that are "hunters"? If I had to guess, most of the hunters out there do not put near the time in the field as many of us on TOO. Example: Met up for a party with my wife's coworkers. Talked to another husband tagging along with his wife. He is telling me how much he loves hunting and giving hunting stories. I asked him if he had done any good this year. He said, not bad but he had only hunted twice this year. Now keep this in mind because this guy might be one of the guys that received the survey to fill out this year. Once again, we can play scenarios fifteen different ways and manipulate the results. In the end, I am not sure it matters who answers the questions. I think the more responses they received back the happier they would be. I also don't think Joe should have pulled down the survey. Keep it posted up. After all, if your opinions are not counted and they know who received the survey and who didn't, then it makes zero difference if 40 people or 400000 people fill it out and send it in. They already know whose answers they need to fill into their system based on the customer numbers.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,121
274
Shouldn't matter Jim. You are forgetting this is a "random" survey. How many guys you bump into that are "hunters"? If I had to guess, most of the hunters out there do not put near the time in the field as many of us on TOO. Example: Met up for a party with my wife's coworkers. Talked to another husband tagging along with his wife. He is telling me how much he loves hunting and giving hunting stories. I asked him if he had done any good this year. He said, not bad but he had only hunted twice this year. Now keep this in mind because this guy might be one of the guys that received the survey to fill out this year. Once again, we can play scenarios fifteen different ways and manipulate the results. In the end, I am not sure it matters who answers the questions. I think the more responses they received back the happier they would be. I also don't think Joe should have pulled down the survey. Keep it posted up. After all, if your opinions are not counted and they know who received the survey and who didn't, then it makes zero difference if 40 people or 400000 people fill it out and send it in. They already know whose answers they need to fill into their system based on the customer numbers.


I want to preserve their stupid data just as they want it for a reason ... This way they have No Excuses when I prove it flawed.... :) Lets just say it'll be beyond a shadow of a doubt. :)
 
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Milo

Tatonka guide.
8,188
171
there is a nice article on herd estimation in bowhunter magazine this month. seems to conclude that using harvest populations may not be the way to go. Tennesse is using thermal imaging for estimates and they are finding that the herds are more balanced (buck/doe ratio) than anyone imagined. real good read if you can get your hands on the magazine.
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,155
261
John Sloan had some very interesting thoughts shared on Bowsite. I asked him to come over here to add some thoughts. Hope he does. There has to be a better way of doing things than the DOW currently is. There is no way they are accurate in giving the highest herd estimation in history.
 

hickslawns

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
40,354
288
Ohio
there is a nice article on herd estimation in bowhunter magazine this month. seems to conclude that using harvest populations may not be the way to go. Tennesse is using thermal imaging for estimates and they are finding that the herds are more balanced (buck/doe ratio) than anyone imagined. real good read if you can get your hands on the magazine.

Just read that last night. You beat me to the punch in posting this. Glad I wasn't the only one that saw it. Good read.
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,155
261
And people think you're nuts when you say we have MORE bucks than does.... Folks that spend time in the woods with deer, monitor them in one way or another year 'round, don't have to believe the nonsense the DOW puts out.
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,155
261
What do you base that estimate on? I'm just curious, as I wonder how it is you know. Are you running cameras 365 or just on what you see while in the field. Do you realize deer are born at a 1/1 ratio? Are there three times as many bucks killed as does? Where do you base this estimate?
 

Kaiser878

Senior Member
2,633
97
ohio
is that a statistical fact brock? it never seems to work out that way in my area. it seems that one year there are a ton of BB, then the next year there are all doe fawns
 

matty636

Junior Member
98
0
mville
i had a talk with a odnr officer about the new check in system basically it was designed to make it easier for the honest hunter but at the same time it makes it easier for the other guy wich there is always gona be that other guy that picks one off with his rifle and checks it the next morning via phone call that was shot with a bow and the few that never even get checked in but i think with the new system you would see a rise in deer taken
 

xbowguy

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
31,109
260
Licking Co. Ohio
I believe that if the "Poachers" were not calling them in, the numbers would be much worse than they are. There is about 1/3 the deer right around here that there was 3 years ago.
 

Curran

Senior Member
Supporting Member
8,043
186
Central Ohio
From today's Columbus Dispatch, two headlines that seem to run well together: Too many Deer? Too few? Hard to answer. and then the next article Hunters can have their say on regulations in March

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2012/02/19/too-many-deer-too-few-hard-to-answer.html

Outdoors: Too many deer? Too few? Hard to answer
Perceptions of herd population may be inaccurate

As noted last week, Ohio deer hunters took about 41,600 fewer whitetails during the 2011-12 season compared with the record 261,260 tagged in 2009-10. The harvest a year ago also was down.

News of the two-year drop — about 15.9 percent — has sparked numerous exchanges on deer forums on the Web. In the strictest sense, opinions run the entire gamut of A to B, to wit: The Ohio Division of Wildlife is at fault; the weather is to blame.

An apparent majority seems to think culpability rests mostly with the division; for example, its switch from check stations to electronic reporting of tagged deer. Then there are accusations that the division is working furtively at the behest of the insurance companies and the Ohio Farm Bureau to lower deer numbers. The wildlife biologists? They don’t seem to know — or care — what’s going on, some critics say.

One hunter, apparently writing in jest given the smiley faces on his post, suggested that maybe the solution lies with pitchforks and torches: “It’s time to make a plan and go get Tonkovich.”

Wildlife biologist Mike Tonkovich is charged with trying to figure out how to manage Ohio’s deer population in the best interests of all. That’s no easy task, given that hunters generally want more deer, but farmers and many urban/suburban dwellers generally want fewer.

The citizenry, which include farmers, urban dwellers and hunters, certainly aren’t blind. However, their view is restricted to the local landscape, which might hold many deer or might hold few. The number can fluctuate from year to year.

Meanwhile, the public hears reports about a growing herd that might indicate a runaway statewide deer population. Such awareness raises concerns among the whitetail-weary and makes hunters question whether the population estimates are reliable when they don’t see as many deer as they think they should.

Here’s the upshot: Tonkovich said not only is far too much emphasis placed on the estimated size of the statewide herd, but that estimate is next to meaningless when it comes to deer management.

The statewide estimate, he said, has “no bearing whatsoever on harvest regulations last year, this year or in the future. There’s not a statewide population goal. Unless my boss gets pressure, we’re not going to talk about (statewide) population anymore.”

Tonkovich manages deer by trying to work with a snapshot no larger than a single county. Simply put, deer are unequally distributed across a varied landscape, which explains in part why an island of two central Ohio counties, Fayette and Madison, will be included next year in the most restricted harvest zone. (The restricted zone, by the way, has over the years shrunk to only four other contiguous counties along Lake Erie in northwest Ohio.)

What makes Fayette and Madison different from surrounding counties is the ease with which hunters can wipe out deer. Two-acre woodlots sprouting amid a mostly agricultural expanse offer deer meager opportunities to avoid hunters.

“Five hunters easily can eradicate all the deer in a stand of trees,” Tonkovich said.

Hunting being the “most significant source of mortality,” he said, means that cutting the season harvest limit is the only cost-effective way to keep numbers at a level that satisfies hunters and doesn’t impose too heavily on farmers. Increasing the limits would have an inverse effect over time.

People annoyed by browsing wild animals on their piece of urban landscape, whether focused on deer sharing roadways or dining in their flowerbeds, often have the impression that the state is overrun with deer. The urban population, though, has never been counted in the state herd estimates. That’s because residential whitetails represent deer that are generally out of the reach of hunters and, therefore, wildlife managers.

“The urban populations are expanding, and they are waiting for no one,” Tonkovich said. “And we can’t touch them. Using automobiles to manage them is not an option.”

Ultimately, the control of nuisance neighborhood deer, he said, likely will require a costly program of contraception, which requires injecting individual deer, or the costly and, to some, unsavory hiring of sharpshooters to knock down the numbers.

As for the overall deer population, Tonkovich described the situation as somewhat “static.” He said he isn’t certain what’s behind the harvest decline of the past two years, although some signs point to fewer deer in counties where populations have tended to run high.

There is, though, a hitch in that assumption.

The models used to determine deer numbers are based on the annual harvest. What remains an unknown, however, is hunter effort. People are either spending a little time to fill a tag or a lot of time to do so. If hunters are giving up before they get a deer because of weather, lack of tenacity or any other reason, the decline in harvest might not be an indication that the deer numbers have fallen.

The division mailed more than 20,000 surveys and emailed another 16,000 to deer hunters in an attempt to get a handle on the effort factor in the deer-harvest equation. However, Tonkovich said the lack of response makes drawing conclusions sketchy and difficult.

Taking several minutes to fill out a survey and returning it in a timely manner, Tonkovich said, can help the division determine the missing piece that indicates whether regulations need to be tightened or loosened in a county. Based on harvest numbers alone, it’s possible that population estimates can lag behind by several years before the true deer numbers become apparent.

“If a hunter wants to make a difference, that’s where a hunter can make a difference,” he said. “ The thing we don’t know is effort. What we don’t know is whether people are hunting less because there are fewer deer. Or, are they just hunting less, and so it seems like there are fewer deer.”

What Tonkovich does know is that the number of purchased deer permits decreased during the most recent season by 4 percent after having fallen about 5 percent the previous year. That could be part of the reason for the drop in harvests, but the kill dropped considerably more than did permit sales.

outdoors@dispatch.com



By the numbers

Ohio deer kill totals over the past five seasons, according to the Ohio Division of Wildlife (the 2009-10 kill of 261,260 is the state record):

2011-12: 219,698
Gun 107,048

Archery 84,350

Muzzleloader 19,251

Other 9,049

Top county: Coshocton 7,969

2010-11: 239,379
Gun 127,157

Archery 85,012

Muzzleloader 17,887

Other 9,323

Top county: Coshocton 8,837

2009-10: 261,260
Gun 134,130

Archery 91,546

Muzzleloader 25,497

Other 10,087

Top county: Coshocton 9,633

2008-09: 252,017
Gun 134,231

Archery 85,856

Muzzleloader 21,532

Other 10,398

Top county: Coshocton 9,564

2007-08: 232,854
Gun 121,183

Archery 78,639

Muzzleloader 22,329

Other 10,703

Top county: Coshocton 8,417