Welcome to TheOhioOutdoors
Wanting to join the rest of our members? Login or sign up today!
Login / Join

Numbers.. Ohio's 2011-12 White-tailed Deer Season -8%

"J"

Git Off My Lawn
Supporting Member
59,129
288
North Carolina
Here’s the upshot: Tonkovich said not only is far too much emphasis placed on the estimated size of the statewide herd, but that estimate is next to meaningless when it comes to deer management.

The statewide estimate, he said, has “no bearing whatsoever on harvest regulations last year, this year or in the future. There’s not a statewide population goal. Unless my boss gets pressure, we’re not going to talk about (statewide) population anymore.”

How do we go from wanting the heard down too 500K to the numbers mean nothing???? If the numbers mean nothing then why shoot for the 500K??? Micro manage the counties and be done with it....

Tonkovich manages deer by trying to work with a snapshot no larger than a single county. Simply put, deer are unequally distributed across a varied landscape, which explains in part why an island of two central Ohio counties, Fayette and Madison, will be included next year in the most restricted harvest zone. (The restricted zone, by the way, has over the years shrunk to only four other contiguous counties along Lake Erie in northwest Ohio.)

Then why aren't they doing this for the decimated SE Counties in Ohio??? They're broad brushing a few select counties and have the flood gates open on the rest.....

As for the overall deer population, Tonkovich described the situation as somewhat “static.” He said he isn’t certain what’s behind the harvest decline of the past two years, although some signs point to fewer deer in counties where populations have tended to run high.

Usually what happens when you take all that is delivered in a year.....

I think the reporter basically took what little he interperated from a couple of forums blended what ODNR gave him and regurgitated this piece of crap.....
 

epe

Senior Member
6,113
93
Lancaster
I agree with ohiosam. The odnr is getting pressure to kill more deer because people see the urban deer where they live and "think" it is all over. From insurance companies to politicians.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,125
274
I had the GF read the article last night without sharing my opinion first.. ..She said It was not written with hunters in mind but written to a higher level. One that was intended to confuse and make people think the DNR is aware of the situation. Yet offered no solutions and instead covered their ass by pushing it back at the hunters not doing their surveys.. It was contradicting, and all over the place.

A few points she had..

When he mentioned ""The statewide estimate, he said, has “no bearing whatsoever on harvest regulations last year, this year or in the future.""
She replied "How stupid is that, you have to know what you have in order to manage it.. Am I managing 15 people or 1,500 there is a gigantic difference. You can;t "Manage" what you don't know"

""Tonkovich manages deer by trying to work with a snapshot no larger than a single county.""
Well then increase the snapshot dummy.. Don't blame your failure on a process that you control 100%. If you need the data make it mandatory 1 in 10 survey before they buy a license. there are 88 counties. Working with a snapshot of 1/88 with a diverse place like ohio is stupid. You can't manage a team of 88 off one persons performance. Nor can you manage a states wild animal population on a 1/88th scale.


She got the feeling that it was smoke and mirrors.... Acknowledge that they're doing something. Without saying a single thing they're doing. Make excuses and have the appearance of being in charge.. But what I really saw was a man scared to utter a single word because he knows you guys will use it as another thread in the rope you're building.. You have them shaken and worried, that is probably the one obvious thing i get from this article.
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
49,451
288
Appalachia
I had the GF read the article last night without sharing my opinion first.. ..She said It was not written with hunters in mind but written to a higher level. One that was intended to confuse and make people think the DNR is aware of the situation. Yet offered no solutions and instead covered their ass by pushing it back at the hunters not doing their surveys.. It was contradicting, and all over the place.

A few points she had..

When he mentioned ""The statewide estimate, he said, has “no bearing whatsoever on harvest regulations last year, this year or in the future.""
She replied "How stupid is that, you have to know what you have in order to manage it.. Am I managing 15 people or 1,500 there is a gigantic difference. You can;t "Manage" what you don't know"

""Tonkovich manages deer by trying to work with a snapshot no larger than a single county.""
Well then increase the snapshot dummy.. Don't blame your failure on a process that you control 100%. If you need the data make it mandatory 1 in 10 survey before they buy a license. there are 88 counties. Working with a snapshot of 1/88 with a diverse place like ohio is stupid. You can't manage a team of 88 off one persons performance. Nor can you manage a states wild animal population on a 1/88th scale.


She got the feeling that it was smoke and mirrors.... Acknowledge that they're doing something. Without saying a single thing they're doing. Make excuses and have the appearance of being in charge.. But what I really saw was a man scared to utter a single word because he knows you guys will use it as another thread in the rope you're building.. You have them shaken and worried, that is probably the one obvious thing i get from this article.

Now I know why you like this girl!!! :smiley_clap:
 

Milo

Tatonka guide.
8,188
171
so what I REALLY want know now is if they are not using a herd number, what are they using to set limits and zones? anyone?
 

Milo

Tatonka guide.
8,188
171
http://www.outdoors.net/Outdoors/News/News/2635

will you look at that

. "We may see an increase in the deer herd of five to ten percent next year as a result of the hunting regulations in place for this season as well as those that were in place last season. This should put the deer herd very near the levels we hope to see for all counties," said Tonkovich.
 

RedCloud

Super Moderator
Super Mod
17,438
207
North Central Ohio
As for the overall deer population, Tonkovich described the situation as somewhat “static.” He said he isn’t certain what’s behind the harvest decline of the past two years, although some signs point to fewer deer in counties where populations have tended to run high.

There is, though, a hitch in that assumption.

The models used to determine deer numbers are based on the annual harvest. What remains an unknown, however, is hunter effort. People are either spending a little time to fill a tag or a lot of time to do so. If hunters are giving up before they get a deer because of weather, lack of tenacity or any other reason, the decline in harvest might not be an indication that the deer numbers have fallen.

The division mailed more than 20,000 surveys and emailed another 16,000 to deer hunters in an attempt to get a handle on the effort factor in the deer-harvest equation. However, Tonkovich said the lack of response makes drawing conclusions sketchy and difficult.

Taking several minutes to fill out a survey and returning it in a timely manner, Tonkovich said, can help the division determine the missing piece that indicates whether regulations need to be tightened or loosened in a county. Based on harvest numbers alone, it’s possible that population estimates can lag behind by several years before the true deer numbers become apparent.

“If a hunter wants to make a difference, that’s where a hunter can make a difference,” he said. “ The thing we don’t know is effort. What we don’t know is whether people are hunting less because there are fewer deer. Or, are they just hunting less, and so it seems like there are fewer deer.”

Static ? Lets see here a minute. Numbers have dropped for 2 years straight and in some counties 4 years straight. Think there might be something to the numbers being harvested ? Maybe that there are fewer deer in huntable areas ? As cities grow and leasing becomes the norm then fewer deer are going to be taken. Add in the fact that deer are not stupid and if they are in the countryside near a city limits, landowners that will not allow hunting, or big tract of land where deer hunting is limited to a few people because they leased said land and only hunt a few times a year, where do you think the deer are going to migrate to when season pressure starts getting to them ?

Less effort by hunters and hunter decline huh. Some of this may be true in the fact that some are armchair hunters and think just because the guys on hunting shows kill deer on every hunt they should be able to do the same and since the deer herd is down it does make it harder even for us diehards and so they dropout of the race. If this trend of low deer herd numbers continue so will the decline in hunters diehards included and the money they pay to the ODNR who stated that Dumbassville and women pay $95 of every $100 contributed.

Survey ? I have hunted for over 20 years in this state and have NEVER been asked to take one. I guess if you only send out 40k to a state that has a 500k+ hunting population then my chances of being selected are like winning the lotto. Probably never happen. If they are getting so few returned then why don't they make the survey easier to take by more people and post it on the ODNR website so more people can contribute to the survey that they say is a huge part of managing the Ohio deer herd ? Why limit yourself to a snapshot of a problem and then try and blame those who are wanting and trying to help you ? For crying out loud, They post one on their site for fishing why not hunting and more specifically deer hunting ?
 
Last edited:

Milo

Tatonka guide.
8,188
171
http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePol...ful-deer-plenty-of-opportunities-in-Ohio.html

Tonkovich said he typically runs an annual harvest total through a population model to assess prospects. From 2007 through 2010, the numbers come up with about 250,000 deer killed out of a pre-season population of 750,000 animals. He noted that harvest and the next season’s population forecast “are very closely linked.” If the current trend continues another year or two, Tonkovich would be willing to consider the herd has reached stability with its habitat. “I’d say so.”

Hunters, he added, are “doing great” in terms of taking deer overall. “A biologist couldn’t ask for a better breakdown.”

Ideally, the biologist said, he would like to see the kill ramped up for a couple of years to the 275,000 range, which would reduce the herd size somewhat. That would improve the quality of individual animals. To explain: Think of available habitat and food as a pie, of which each deer has a slice. More deer equals smaller slices and smaller slices equals smaller deer.



WTF!!
 

hickslawns

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
40,380
288
Ohio
Okay, here is a thought. Journalists: You think they sit around and work on one story at a time? I honestly don't know. My guess is they are following multiple stories at a time. Some of them are needed to hit the press in the morning such as results of last nights ball game. Other stories they work on a bit here and there and print them when the timing is right. I will not hold Tonk's feet to the fire on the conflicting quotes Milo. It is only recently that he has been quoted to show he might be rethinking some of his positions. Time WILL tell.

I don't know Tonk personally. I think I met Mrex once. I have never met Brock. However, I will take them for their word. Brock is frustrated (i know big understatement). BUT, he was given some notice when he brought up these issues to Tonk. Sure, it took some time and might have been a tardy response, but Brock was eventually heard. Time will tell if it was too late or not. MRex- the man is in a tight spot. I think he is siding with the hunters, but trying to act as a bit of a middle man on the boards. I consider Jackalope a friend of mine. If people were publicly ripping on him, I would speak my mind in efforts to take some of the heat off him. Might be pretty tough if I was still deciding if Jackalope was right or wrong though. If I felt he were correct I would back him 100%. If I was unsure, I would maybe walk the fencerow and throw some smoke. If i felt he were wrong, I would shoot him a PM, email, text, or phone call and try to point out my differences to him. Remove me and jackalope from the equation and you have Mrex and Tonk. I am not going to throw Mrex under the bus. He might be the best ally the hunters have right now.

Tonk- My opinion is keep the heat turned on Jackalope. Just do so in an open minded way. He is starting to show the admittance of some errors in their ways. However, he is driving an RV down the highway 80mph and can't just throw it on cruise control to walk back to the john to take a leak. He HAS to sit behind the wheel and try to pacify every motorists surrounding him. He has cars in front and behind cruising not paying attention. He has cars to the side noticing him, proceeding with caution, but not saying much. Then he has a couple of cars ready to cut him off that he has to keep an eye on because he doesn't want to be responsible for a pile up on the interstate. My thoughts are: he notices your road rage and is easing off the throttle to give you some room. He wants to appease everyone, but there are a bunch of motorists out there. He slows down to give you room and there is a lineup of cars behind him pissed off. Keep driving with your road rage attitude and getting his attention. Eventually, he might be able to slide into a slower lane where his changes are not as drastic. Eventually, he will be in a safer position, but he is not in the right lane right now. He is in the fast lane and has deer numbers dropping. He needs to get in the slow lane, back off the throttle, and give himself some better options to control all the herd (or cars on the highway) with slower changes in efforts to keep more people happy.

Ok. Might be a terrible analogy, but you see my point. There is stress and pressure from all sides. Driving 85mph was cool for awhile, but now the man is stuck in the fast lane and needs to figure out how to get back in the right lane without causing a pile up. There has to be a happy medium and I think his recent quotes look like he realizes he can't keep cruising 85 in the hammer lane.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,125
274
Yep. I bet he's able to be objective in his writing! :smiley_crocodile:

All this tells me the most important thing of all though.. The dogs treed on the right tree!





"Tree My DOG!"
 
Last edited:

Ohiosam

*Supporting Member*
11,997
205
Mahoning Co.
..

And now you know.. The rest of the story..

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dave-golowenski/9/783/aa6

 

Ohiosam

*Supporting Member*
11,997
205
Mahoning Co.
I agree with ohiosam. The odnr is getting pressure to kill more deer because people see the urban deer where they live and "think" it is all over. From insurance companies to politicians.

Going to ODNR meetings and expressing yourself is good but that is only one side of the equation. If you want to change things sportsmen need to let elected officials know their feelings also. Otherwise yelling at employees of the ODNR is like yelling at the waitress because your meal is bad. Might be a place to start but she doesn't have the real power to solve the proble..
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,174
261
It is not a good idea for any employee of any division of wildlife to suggest using contraception to manage a deer population.

A population estimate is indeed important. As has been pointed out, how do you know when you have reached the goal?

Pointing out Fayette and Madison Counties as being different than surrounding counties is bunk. The entire western portion of the state looks exactly like Madison and Fayette...Some of the south western portion is a bit hillier, and has a bit more cover, but the majority of the region is comprised of small wood lots and large ag fields. What the article should have pointed out is that we have already killed the majority of the deer in Fayette, and still hope to wipe out the remaining herd in the rest of the region.

You guys crack me up, already knowing the author's life history is nothing short of comical.
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,174
261
Mrex told me there was some talk of using thermal imaging to determine density in the near future. The expense seems to be holding the DOW back. I think it would be a great expendeture of the funds they saved by producing crap tags and using telecheck (which was supposedly done to save money). I say if the system you are using is flawed, and another proven system is available, you need to spend the funds you are allocated for a job to do the job well.