Brock is snaring coyotes and I am catching them. We are trying to solve the problem. But for every Coyote we don't get 15 fawns dissapear. And thats alot of fawns.
Brock is snaring coyotes and I am catching them. We are trying to solve the problem. But for every Coyote we don't get 15 fawns dissapear. And thats alot of fawns.
Schu72
Well-Known Member
Paul,
It's not just us it the future. I want my kids to have fun hunting and enjoy being outdoors. So much of today's world is about instant gratification. Although I'm doing my best with them, they may lose interest if the population goes back to where it was in the '80s. Personally, I don't mind the challenge. I cut my teeth when the herd was less than half of what it is now. I just don't like being lied to and seeing the DOW turn a blind eye to a rapid decline in the herd.
Mountaineer
Banned
All Im saying is..
Is it the coyotes? Or is it the Hunters causing this decline? My argument is..I think the coyotes will get their fair share but what they get is not out of the norm..They kill the fawns...the injured..the sick..the weak..and the old. We as hunters dont do that...So..If we are not performing in Natural Selection then the finger is pointed at us. We all know thats impossible..but such the case we have to be very careful how we manage. There's fine line between sustainablity and Unsustainability with the way we manage. Things can go bad quickly.
These are just my personal opinions.
Is it the coyotes? Or is it the Hunters causing this decline? My argument is..I think the coyotes will get their fair share but what they get is not out of the norm..They kill the fawns...the injured..the sick..the weak..and the old. We as hunters dont do that...So..If we are not performing in Natural Selection then the finger is pointed at us. We all know thats impossible..but such the case we have to be very careful how we manage. There's fine line between sustainablity and Unsustainability with the way we manage. Things can go bad quickly.
These are just my personal opinions.
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It isn't a matter of "getting it done". It is a matter of enjoying doing it. I hunt in the lowest kill county in the state - we'll call that strike one. I know how good the hunting USED to be in that county, and it is hard to enjoy today knowing what it was like yesterday - strike 2. I was fortunate to have access to all the high tech equipment I wanted to use to monitor the herd, thus taking away the hope that the deer were just over the fence feeding on acorns - strike 3? I am not left to guess, I know - strike 4.
Though Fayette is a low-density county, I have what is likely the very best habitat in the county. If there are deer anywhere, I have 'em. I have never had the "exclusive" hunting some to think is so important. I had to teach another fella how to hunt so he wouldn't continue to mess me up...it paid off for me and him! At that time, I only had 150 acres in there to hunt, and I couldn't have it fouled up. I've gained the adjoining properties since, but still it is a very delicate place to hunt. You can't just march in. Last year, folks could watch me go to and from my stands. I never pushed a deer past a camera on my way in or out. Had another guy come in to hunt two days...he spooked deer both days! Point being, I know what I am doing on that farm. If there were a bunch of deer still around, I'd see them or have 'em on camera. There isn't, and there used to be.
Speaking of last year, I saw ten coyotes in one morning. I shot two of them - they came in to rattling! Do you think they were thinking there may be a couple of tired deer there? BtW, I had never seen that many coyotes in a year! I saw coyotes every time I hunted the farm until the middle of November, then poof, they were gone. They are nomadic. They are not on my properties very heavily right now, but I have snarred a couple. I found a den about 1 1/2 mile from where I caught the other pair (male and female). I have three snares set close to that den. If I don't get them in the snares over the next few weeks, I will kill everything I find in that den...pups and all.
Indeed I'm whining, but I'm putting forth an effort too. I know it's a loosing battle, but I'll do what I can. Its a 30 minute drive each way from that farm to home, and I've been doing it four or five times a week. Takes a shade over an hour to check my 30+ snares via a four wheeler.
It is hard for a deer herd to overwhelm predators with fawns when there simply aren't many fawns hitting the ground due to few does being left.
If I hadn't been crying, and with a lil help from Mrex, Fayette would still be in Zone B even though we do not have the population to support the tags and liberal seasons. Sometimes the DOW needs folks to point out things, they have a big job to do and I don't think they have the resources to gather all the information they need.
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I don't think anyone is blaming the coyotes singly. They are a contributing factor however, and I think the DOW has over-looked their affect until recently. They are taking a closer look, likely due to these conversations, and what they have heard face to face from concerned hunters. Mrex may be able to explain farther, but they have live-trapped a few and are monitoring them to see how many fawns they kill.
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The complaining is because some of us like to hunt deer... Just deer... Nothing special.. Just 4 legged brown deer.. Along with that comes seeing deer... Not sitting and sleeping in a stand daylight till dark like a fucking knot on a limb wishing a single set of antlers walks by. Sure we might do that some in November. But we also hunt the rest of the season too.. You know, the other 15 weeks of the season. Not everyone hunts just so they can kill a buck. Sure it's nice and we try, but honestly, If every buck disappeared tomorrow you would still find my ass in a tree come opening day. Hunt how you hunt but don't expect the rest of us to hunt that way simply because you don't care about anything but horns.
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Mountaineer
Banned
epe,,
I dont know everything..these are just my personal opinions.
As far as mortality rates, I cant answer that question. I would say that if the deer population cannot overwhelm the coyote pressure during birthing periods then the rates will be higher in areas of low deer populations.
If Hunters kill off the factories(prime aged breeding doe's) then that hurts fawn production. This is the foundation.
I dont know everything..these are just my personal opinions.
As far as mortality rates, I cant answer that question. I would say that if the deer population cannot overwhelm the coyote pressure during birthing periods then the rates will be higher in areas of low deer populations.
If Hunters kill off the factories(prime aged breeding doe's) then that hurts fawn production. This is the foundation.
Schu72
Well-Known Member
Mountaineer
Banned
Jack..
Then....I would say your appetite for killing Far exceeds the coyotes.
Coyotes kill discriminatly..Hunters kill Indiscriminately. That is the root of the problem.
Then....I would say your appetite for killing Far exceeds the coyotes.
Coyotes kill discriminatly..Hunters kill Indiscriminately. That is the root of the problem.
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There is a simple solution to both of those problems... It's called a stable deer population. It doesn't matter what coyotes and hunters kill, as long as there is enough left to repopulate right back where we started. Less than that equals a decline.. More than that equals overall growth.. The herd size needs to be such a size where it can absorb EVERY factor, and after birthing be right back at the same level. One thing you guys don;t understand with lower levels comes a decrease in opportunity..
Schu72
Well-Known Member
Mountaineer
Banned
Brock..
If coyotes are having a detrimental effect on your deer herd then i would say that the deer cannot Sustain the pressure by humans..coyotes and everything else coming after them..and that is when it comes back to the managing agency.
If coyotes are having a detrimental effect on your deer herd then i would say that the deer cannot Sustain the pressure by humans..coyotes and everything else coming after them..and that is when it comes back to the managing agency.
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Coyotes are not discriminant.. They're opportunistic. Unless by discriminant you mean anything not made of meat..
Mountaineer
Banned
jack.
.I agree..you are exactly right.
The herd must be strong enough to Sustain itself.
They are discriminate when it comes to deer...They seek the weakest.
.I agree..you are exactly right.
The herd must be strong enough to Sustain itself.
They are discriminate when it comes to deer...They seek the weakest.
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You are incorrect. They have the ability and do "weaken" any deer they choose to pursue. They do that by staying on the trail at a steady gait. The pace is quick enough to require the deer to "burst". It's how deer elude things...short burst. Over a period of time, the deer no longer has the desire or stamina to "burst". It will stand, head down, and take it's medicine. I have personally seen it! The first coyote I ever shot with a bow was just about to kill a young doe. She trotted passed, stood 50 yards or so to my left, head down, obviously exhausted and facing her back trail. Here comes the coyote (a 30lb female), it stopped briefly at 38 yards, and I shot it. The deer was still standing in the corn stubble where it had stopped when I climbed down minutes later to fetch the yote. I had no witness in the tree with me, but I swear it's the truth.
I just read a study lastnight that was done that said coyote during the months of June and July can kill 3 of every 4 fawns born.
Now if the DNR is not adding in the mortality rate at the right % and still allowing the higher kill rates of does then pretty soon there will not be enough doe to " overwhelm" the predator population with fawns and the herd will be in a downward spiral that will never be allowed to rebound do to the fact hunters will still be allowed to harvest too many.
Like Brock, I have seen a lower number of fawns surviving as well as no turkey poults. No young or at least not enough to replace the died and dieing then what do you think will happen Mountie ?
Might I also add that the groundhogs are almost all gone (not complaining just an observation) and I can't tell you the last time I kicked up a rabbit around here.
Looks like there needs to be a bounty on coyotes.....but that will never happen. Remember, the DNR is the one that turned all the coyotes loose in the first place:smiley_blameshift:
(Actually I don't believe they have turned them loose, but I have heard plenty of rumors about it)
(Actually I don't believe they have turned them loose, but I have heard plenty of rumors about it)
oakswamper
Member
I've shot, snared, trapped 43 yotes just on my 60 acres in 10/11 and I don't think I've dented the population.
Mountaineer lol, If you take diablo's challenge make sure you post on here to let me know, I would drive 300 miles to watch that
actually 09/10 and 11...I'm gettin old forgot a year
Mountaineer lol, If you take diablo's challenge make sure you post on here to let me know, I would drive 300 miles to watch that
actually 09/10 and 11...I'm gettin old forgot a year
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Mountaineer
Banned
"Really adept predators such as red foxes and coyotes may all but go off a meat standard in their feeding at times when some especially relished plant material is abundantly available to them. In parts of the western US, coyotes may become more of a nuisance not because of their depredation upon poultry or livesstock but because of their appetite for melons."
Cited literature..Errington,P.L. "Of Predation and Life"
There ya go fellows..Coyotes are Omnivores.
Cited literature..Errington,P.L. "Of Predation and Life"
There ya go fellows..Coyotes are Omnivores.